Still with me? Good. I am done with spoilers. I don't mean that I no longer want people to spoil things for me, I mean that I'm done with spoilers as a concept. I'm increasingly convinced that fear of spoilers is a roadblock to meaningful discussion, especially when we're talking about games and gaming. It's also my firm belief that fear of spoilers has increasingly given writers permission to tell the same hackneyed stories again and again.
On a recent episode of Nation of Gamers, a promising discussion about Heavy Rain started, and then was immediately put down due to the fact that it might cause a spoiler. The idea was then floated that we'd do something similar to what they do on the Gamers With Jobs Conference Call, and have a discussion later that would be released under a spoiler alert headline. This is frustrating for me as a commentator on a number of levels; primarily, I don't see it as my job to prevent spoilers from reaching your ears. Rather, it's my job to do the best I can in providing entertaining discussion about games. If you don't want to have a game spoiled and we start talking about said game, the burden is with you to overcome your morbid curiosity and stop listening, not with me to stop talking about it. Maybe you should come back after you've finished the game? The show will still be there.
Excessive spoiler awareness isn't fair to the people that have finished a game and want to have that discussion, and self censoring to prevent spoilers makes our show less interesting. Will we ever go back and talk about Heavy Rain? Maybe, maybe not. Even if we do, it won't be as fresh in our minds as it would had we talked about it shortly after we completed it. There will be points forgotten, and the entire conversation will take on the tone of, "Oh yeah! I remember that!" I'm all for pleasant reminiscing, but it is no substitute for substantive discussion.
Quick! Which was better, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, or Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 2? The vast majority of you would say the that the first game was superior, and not only because of the public relations missteps of publisher Activision. One of the major problems with the second game was that it relied on the same plot devices as the first. Like, exactly the same devices. The shock of dying as one of the main characters in MW was substantially greater than when the same occurred in MW2, and all the spoiler police in the world wouldn't have made it any better. If instead of cheap shocks Infinity Ward had developed a compelling plot that made any logical sense, our collective reaction would have been much different.
However, it's the current zeitgeist among entertainment makers to rely heavily on the, "You won't believe what happens next!" model of storytelling, and we're letting them get away with it. The nanny culture surrounding media only reinforces the notion that we don't care about engaging stories, interesting characters, or good gameplay. It tells writers and producers everywhere that we'll accept bland storytelling if only they string us along at the right pace.
I'm not against surprising twists, far from it. I am against mysterious circumstances and shocking developments being a sideshow used to distract from lame storytelling. If something is great, truly great, then knowing how it ends won't "spoil" anything. I can still play Final Fantasy IV and thoroughly enjoy it, even knowing as I do that Golbez is Cecil's brother. I know that Joker is going to turn himself into a monster at the end of Batman: Arkham Asylum and the game is still a ton of fun. And for my money, knowing from the beginning of Heavy Rain that Scott is the Origami Killer would have made for a more interesting game. Conversely, knowing that Alistair was going to die wouldn't have made Tomb Raider: Underworld's story any less dumb.
This doesn't mean I'm going to go out of my way to ruin things for people. However, the next time someone freaks out when I start talking about something that they haven't experienced, I'm going to ask them to remove themselves from the conversation rather than censor myself.
So, what do you think? Would you rather we leave your ears pristine, clean of any spoilers? Or would you prefer a more substantive discussion, even knowing that some surprises may be lost?
Spencer Williams
I don't think spoilers is a very big deal. You make very good points and I agree with most of them.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is the ride that matters, not the destination so to speak. Character development for example is pretty much impossible to spoil.
I'm a-okay with spoilers. I have to judge them on a case by case basis, but most of the time I can decide for myself whether or not to listen to the juicy details or turn away from the discussion. If you had gone into detail about Heavy Rain on that episode, I'd either have thought to myself "Do I plan on playing that game? Probably not without a PS3. Okay I'll listen" or otherwise I'd have just left the chatroom for a while or skipped through the recording until you finished. That opinion is predicated on the assumption that I get some sort of warning first. Without a warning, spoilers kind of piss me off.
ReplyDeleteFor example, and of course the rest of the paragraph is a spoiler, on the Steampowered forums for HL2, a bit prior to its release, someone asked an innocuous question about the super gravity gun, revealing its existance and what it did. Obviously, that was the first most people had heard of it, so its existance was spoiled. The intended gameplay for getting into the citidel was for you to get swarmed by enemies, but lose all your weapons just prior; so your only choice to fight your way through is to desperately lob physics objects at dozens of combine, which is when you discover that your lowly gravity gun is the most powerful weapon in the game. It's supposed to be a "moment", but if you knew about it before hand, you'd just see your blue gun in your hands and think "oh, this is the kill-everyone-in-one-hit level I heard about" and think nothing of it.
On the other hand, I successfully avoided Bioshock spoilers for a few years before finally playing it, even though I wasn't sure I ever would get around to it. (Irony alert: I already played most of the Bioshock spoilers myself in 2000.) It was pretty easy, even for that long.
So, in summary, as long as spoilers are warned about, people can decide for themselves to listen. Since NoG is a podcast about games, I see no reason why you should tiptoe around the games you're discussing. Perhaps splitting certain discussions into one spoiler free half and a second spoiltastic half would do the trick, but I'm okay with them as long as there's a warning. Also worth noting, I'm okay with knowing that a spoiler exists, even if I don't know what it is; for instance, if you said "After this level, if you did suchandsuch with soandso earlier, then there's an awesome plot twist which you shouldn't miss! We'll talk about that in a second." then I'd know that not only is there a spoiler I should avoid hearing, but it's actually worth playing.
Spoilers, to me, do not matter that much. I agree that you should not worry about spoiling the game, because it is the listeners decision to make.
ReplyDeleteIt is particularly true when you say that spoilers don't matter if the game is interesting and unique.
I totally agree with this statement.
Spoilers dont bother me all that much, mainly because in most cases I wont be playing the game thats in the conversation because I dont have the consoles to play them on.
ReplyDeleteI am so glad you're doing this. It's been frustrating me several times, listening to NoG and rolling my eyes as someone refuses to spoil something for the sake of the surprise. This is partly because I value interesting discussion, but also because I very, very rarely play games for the story element anyway.
ReplyDeleteThanks for bringing this up, Spencer. No more covering for spoilers on NoG!
Bring on the spoilers I say! I really hate it when your conversations stop just because of the idea that ears need to be kept pristine. You guys have such great discussions and I want to hear everything you want to say. You could say spoiler warning before having a spoiler so that anyone who does care can skip that part.
ReplyDeletePersonally I would make an episode where all you do is spoil the endings of games. Just for laughs.
Keep up the excellent work lads.
I personally can't stand spoilers, but that's mainly thanks to this one kid I knew who'd spoil things freely in conversation without any warning. On one occasion he told me how awesome FF VII is and literally in the same breath proceeded to tell me all about the relation between Cloud, Zack, and Sephiroth. In following breaths he explained all about Aeris and Jenova and essentially every other major plot point, all with me standing there trying to tell him "yeah, thanks, how about I play the bloody game?"
ReplyDeleteThat said, I've gotten a bit better. As long as people give the courtesy of warning about spoilers beforehand I have no issue with it. Just saying something as simple as "this discussion will contain spoilers for Heavy Rain" would suffice. The people that genuinely want to avoid spoilers do deserve a couple seconds to escape, after all.
I don't mind about most spoilers, but if anyone spoils EP3 for me, God help them.
ReplyDeleteChances are I will be off the Internet untill I finish it.
I agree that the entire game is the main point when it comes to good story telling. its true for book just as much as games, you wouldn't excuse a book for a single good point in it like we do games. Yes i honestly don't mind spoilers cause they don't really hurt the game all together. A good game will be a good game weather i know the plot twist or not.
ReplyDeleteWith that said i do not like it. For instance I had knowledge of Fontaine and the "would you kindly" twist in bioshock before i played it. Did it hurt the game, yes cause the game revolves around that point, but i can't say it made the game any less fun. if you talk about spoilers on the show i won't care i would listen anyway, but i would like a warning before hand, like have Wes just start screaming about how its going to ruin everything .
Just do a spoiler section like GWJ podcast, that will solve the problem.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, if the game is about story telling then i think the concept of spoilers is ok, however i dont like it the concept of spoilers is used in NoG at the expense of discussion. Spencers example of the origami killer in heavy rain i think would have ruined the game for me.
ReplyDeleteI do let my own curiosity get to me though
Spencer: "did you drink the drink?"
Wes: "my character died"
Spencer & Wes: "blah blah blah"
Wes: "i think we should talk about this off the air"
Me: " =| dammit"
but at the point i hadn't even finished the game but i did want to hear more discussion about it. But the fact that the killer was who he was did surprise me [well not in a OH MY GOD kind of way, more of a...Oh....thats an odd person] would have changed the way i played the game had i known he was who he was prior to finishing. I played through the game a second time through to fail as the everyone but the killer to get the perfect crime achievement (>'.')=b
mmm...to sum it up i think the concept of spoilers is a good one, however the onus is on the listener to stop listening. As a podcast i think what could be some interesting discussions are hampered by the whole spoiler thing. If the game has been out for a reasonable amount of time, I'm probably not going to play it anyway so discuss away! =D
P.S.
I accepted the drink
refused to drink the drink
ransacked the place
got biffed by the doctor
biffed the doctor back
left in a huff >=D
Spoilers is a tricky question, but all in all I mostly agree with your points, and I think NOG should at most provide a spoiler warning - perhaps an edited in summary at the beginning of the cast?
ReplyDeleteAnd I like how you point out that spoilers shouldn't ruin a good story. It's a very interesting point that the books, films and games that I return to enjoy many times over are not those who's main strength was a plot twist.
I guess a good question is, if a spoiler ruins your experience of a game, was it really a good game to begin with?
If there is a particular sound which marks the start and end of a spoiler section, I think it will solve a lot of problems people have with spoilers. Just a clear sound that you can easily recognice when you skip forward into an episode. It's all post-production stuff really..Eric, that's your que
ReplyDeleteThe problem that people have is that they want the most possible content they can get. But often when they tey to get just that, they get caught with their pants down by a spoiler. And my opinion is that it's their own fault if they didn't already have themselves covered with the information they needed.
Now if you just start talking about a game that came out a week ago or one that is still under production without warning, I understand if people get mad. All of us are still purcuing the best experience
Socks like me generally do not care for spoilers. Sockrates of the philosophical branch of the International Sock Coalition thinks that people who don't like them should get a warning followed by a few seconds of intermittent silence to allow those who forbid their ears from hearing them. A Wet Sock agrees with this.
ReplyDeleteSpoilers don't really tend to annoy me that much for 2 main reasons:
ReplyDelete1: They're usually spoiling a game I don't plan on playing
2: I have already had the game spoiled by my terrible curiosity.
Spoilers are a case by case basis. In the past most games were not heavily centered around stories, they focused on gameplay. If i planned on picking up Doom, and I had a friend spoil the ending for me, it would not matter very much because the gameplay could make up for it. However, in recent years games like Heavy Rain or Alan Wake most people do not play for the gameplay, but for their stories(Alan Wake being extremely repetitive and Heavy Rain for obvious reasons). And if i plan to play one of these games and someone spoils them for me, my single reason for playing through them is gone. Spoilers are a case by case basis, if a game relies heavily on an engaging narrative then it shouldn't be spoiled.
ReplyDeleteI concur! Having to tiptoe around discussions because of spoilers is annoying as a caster but also as a listener.
ReplyDeleteSpoilers as a concept are interesting concept as often I am personally conflicted as to whether I want to know an interesting piece of information about the story of the game but I also want that information to be fresh whilst playing. As Doug Lombardi said at E3 whilst demoing Portal 2 "You think you want to know but really you don't.". I can personally think of many games that would have been spoiled for me had I known the story in advance: Portal, Heavy Rain and Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. However there are also games that I wouldn't care about spoilers, usually those with a weaker story-line. Therefore in conclusion I think that it should be left to a person's own volition as to whether they listen to spoilers and as such they should be flagged but discussion of story-lines should not be encroached by fear that you may be spoiling someone's experience of a game as they should take it upon themselves to avoid spoilers. I now personally take it upon myself to avoid spoilers, which I would generally define as anything within the second or third act of a game as I have been burnt in the past due to knowing the conclusion of Half Life 2: Episode Two, I enjoy games much more when I don't know about them but if someone wants to know they should have the opportunity and if people want to discuss spoilers they should have the opportunity.
ReplyDeleteI almost enjoy spoilers, because they give me an impression of the games story, and whether I would enjoy the game or not. But with some games, like the ones I am playing at the time of the spoil, I will skip over that section of the article or the podcast, but not demand that podcasters do not discuss spoilers. People need to be responsible for themselves, and podcasters are only doing what the "job" description entails. Talking about games, and stories are part of those games. Yes, people should discuss spoilers, and people who dont want a game spoiled can easily avoid it.
ReplyDeleteI think that spoilers are totally fine as long as the listener knows that the game/movie the host is talking about is about to get spoiled so the listener have a chance to turn off the podcast or skip to the part after the spoiler. You dont have to stop a good discussion because of a spoiler just warn the listeners so they have a chance to finish the game without knowing the ending unless the listener dont care. I would be pissed if someone spoiled something without a reason.
ReplyDelete